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Poster: kdern Date: Aug 24, 2011 1:18pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: A few more newbie questions

Hi all...

Still a newbie here and still have questions. If anyone has a few minutes I'd love help with these:

1. The only shows I really know are 1970-1977. If you had to recommend one amazing early show (1966-68) and one later show (1980s or later?) to give me an idea of these periods, which shows would you recommend? My favorite shows are those with more Jerry songs and fewer extended jams.

2. I can't seem to get into the long jams like Space, Jam, Drums... even (don't freak out) Dark Star. There seems to be no structure to them... not even a chord progression they're using as a base. When there's a long jam in a song, it works for me since it's part of the song structure and gets back to the vocals eventually, but the jams are hard for me to stay with. Anyone else feel this way? Any tips on another way to look at these tracks so I can learn to appreciate them?

3. I would like to find the concerts that have the best piano... probably with Pigpen. Europe '72 was my introduction and I still love it... but are there other great piano concerts that I should check out? I listened to 4-17-1971 since it's supposed to be the best Pigpen show but there's little or no piano.

4. If I hear applause on a recording, does that mean it's an audience recording? Or is there some applause on the soundboard tapes too?

5. Can you refer me to a site that would list each song and tell me who is singing lead?

Thanks for all the help... I'm sure I'll think of more questions eventually!

Kevin

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Aug 24, 2011 3:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

1. If you don't like extended jams, you might not like the '60s shows. One long jam after another. Pure torture, for some!

2. For me, the longer the jam the better, so I can't help you there. You might like Scarlet>Fire: a somewhat loose & extended jam, followed by a song with more structured solos. The Help>Slipknot>Franklin suite is similar. Bird Song is another good Jerry tune with a shorter & more approachable extended jam that comes back to the theme.

3. Pigpen hardly played any piano except for a little in 1970; he mainly played organ. The main good "piano shows" are Keith's, from '72-76 - he was the piano player in Europe '72. (The keyboard players who followed him were more into organ & synth.) Though when Bruce Hornsby sat in with the band in late '90-91, you also get lead piano & 2 keyboardists, though a very different band sound than Europe '72. I think you'd like the acoustic sets from 1980, too (as on the Reckoning album).

4. Loud applause invariably means an audience recording. Usually on soundboards you can barely hear an audience. (At least in the '70s; their soundman in the '80s liked to put more of the crowd in the mix, I think.) There are also a lot of "matrix" recordings where the soundboard & audience tapes are digitally combined. The shows on the Archive are almost always labeled which source they are.

5. http://www.whitegum.com/~acsa/introjs.htm may be helpful as far as listing who wrote all the songs, but I don't think any site lists the singers. Weir & Garcia always sing their own songs, though.

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Poster: kdern Date: Aug 24, 2011 4:12pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Wow - and I thought it was Pigpen I was into all these years. You guys are awesome.

Guess I need to start researching for Keith's best shows, not Pigpen's!

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Poster: wisconsindead Date: Aug 24, 2011 9:05pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Heres some good later Dead...

Alpine 1989

http://www.archive.org/details/gd89-07-17.sbd.unknown.17702.sbeok.shnf

http://www.archive.org/details/gd89-07-18.sbd.9854.sbeok.shnf

http://www.archive.org/details/gd89-07-19.sbd.437.sbeok.shnf

I prefer both sets the first day, set one the second, and both sets the 3rd night. Later dead doesn't get much better than this.

Keep trying to give the jammed out dead a shot. Its really amazing once you start to get it. I love me a 72 dark star

This post was modified by wisconsindead on 2011-08-25 04:05:38

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Poster: dark.starz Date: Aug 25, 2011 3:18pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Yep,

89 Alpine Valley is a great run, you should consider a dedicated thread with some highlights!

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Poster: wisconsindead Date: Aug 25, 2011 3:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

I certainly have planned on it. Except it would be god knows how long. Everything is so well played, it would get redundant.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 24, 2011 1:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

First, and foremost, your desire for form in jams will be assisted by a selection of some 68 & 69 material. Relative to the space, etc., of post 75, in any case (eg, the Eleven is defn highly structured). So, although there will be DS's, they will be shorter, and the suites (DS-SS--11--DDHNM or CE--OOne--CE--NPC) will seem relatively consistent, formula driven even, one might say, if you sample these particular "must hear" shows:

6-14-68 (poor AUD, with low vocals, BUT even the feedback has structure to it)

8-22/24-68 (Two from the Vault; recordings here)

10-12/13-68 (no kybds; easier to pick out the instruments)

12-29-68 (amazing guitar work on the OOnew, post drums transition)

4-5-69 ("live dead" esque, with MotMoon-->DS segue to give you more motivation to listen to DS)

4-6-69 (ck out the DDHNM alone...it's worth it)

11-8-69 (ck out the UJB, sans lyrics, within the jam, to give you more "form")

These are just a few to give you a lite homework assignment for the weekend.

I'll let others address your other queries...as for singing, just listen to the studio albums to realize Jerry does most of the leads on famous early DEAD tunes (UJBand, DWolf, NSBoogie, CJones, FotDevil, DS, etc) while Bob does some of these (SMagnolia, PitBand, etc), but many of the covers (MTried, M&BMgee, M&MUncle, NMBlues, BIODTLine). Phil rarely sang (BoRain, PoCucam, UBChain), but of course, those three did harmonies on the early studio works. Pig sang tunes like LLight, GMLSchoolgirl--blues style tunes...

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Poster: kdern Date: Aug 24, 2011 3:45pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Thanks for the suggestions - will put these on the top of my list of shows to find!

Right now I'm listening to 8/6/74 (Roosevelt Stadium) and loving that most of the tracks are actual songs, maybe even too short! I just skipped the 18 minute Eyes of the World.

Thanks...

Edit: Finished listening to the show and found it really annoying. The audience noise is completely distracting and many of the songs sound rushed. Aside from Sugaree and Jerry's solo on Deal, I could skip the rest of it.

This post was modified by kdern on 2011-08-24 22:45:34

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Aug 25, 2011 11:05am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Part of your reaction may come from listening to the audience recording. It might be a good idea to stick to soundboard tapes, for clearer sound & you don't get distracted by the audience.

As far as recommendations, it helps others when you say what parts of the Dead you HAVE liked the most so far....1972 shows? 1977? Certain favorite songs? I suspect you might like 1971 in general as there are lots of short rockin' songs and the jams are kept relatively brief. Then again, maybe 1977 is your sweet spot; that's one of the most popular Dead years. 5/7 and 5/8/77 are two of the most famous Dead shows, with lots of Jerry in the second sets. (Also, 1977 is the top year for Sugarees, hands-down; although the Deals get better in the '80s.)

I also wonder how much Jerry Garcia Band you've heard - basically all Jerry songs all the time, and very little "space" or really long jams. The Saunders/Garcia stuff up to '75 is probably too way-out for you (tons of long jazzy excursions with organ), but the shows with Keith from '76-78 you might like, or perhaps the more uptempo '80s Garcia Band shows with organ.

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Poster: kdern Date: Aug 25, 2011 11:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

You guys are awesome...

My favorite tapes so far are...

Europe '72 (my introduction 10 years ago)
Cornell 5/8/77 (cliche, I know!)

Also like...

8/27/72 Veneta, OR (great Sugaree)
5/2/70 Binghampton - Acoustic Set

I def like the soundboard tapes better... doesn't everyone?

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Aug 25, 2011 7:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

>I def like the soundboard tapes better... doesn't everyone?

No :)

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Poster: midnightcarousel Date: Aug 25, 2011 6:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

You skipped the Eyes of the World? That is the best thing in the whole set. At least check out the first 8 minutes or so. Garcia's soloing is off the charts. And the exit jam is pretty spectacular, although if you haven't developed a taste for the long jams then you might not appreciate it. In any case I heartily recommend you investigate that cut.

As for early years I heartily second all of WT's suggestions. I personally think that Dark Star holds the essence of what the Dead were best at, and encourage you to try to develop a taste for it. If you haven't tried it already, go for Live/Dead. I think that's the best Dark Star to begin with. If you've heard it already, listen again, and then again, and then a few more times after that.

As for DS lacking "structure" - I have to take major exception to that. It doesn't usually have the structure of a conventional song or even a symphony, but most of the early versions have very clearly defined structure. The form is usually impromptu and develops organically, but it's absolutely there. Also, it ABSOLUTELY has chord changes, despite being a mostly modal (scale-based) piece. I'll do my best to illustrate, but I can't guarantee the formatting on this web site will make it look very pretty:

Intro chords: variations on A G A G (listen to Bob)

A G A G, etc.
Dark star crashes, pouring its light into ashes

Em A Em A, etc.
Reason tatters, the forces tear loose from the axis

Em A Em A, etc.
Searchlight casting, for faults in the clouds of delusion

A Em
Shall we go, you and I while we can?

A Em
Through the transitive nightfall of diamonds...

You get the point. The chords are basically used to emphasize the modality of the song (A mixolydian). If you want a lesson in "less is more" with regard to chord changes, check out "So What" on Miles Davis' album Kind Of Blue. Only two chords in the entire goddamn song, and it's absolutely captivating from start to finish.

I sympathize with your position, though - there was a time when I thought Dark Star was rather boring. Try out a few different ones. Most of the 1968 versions are under 15 minutes and are decidedly snappy, so that might be the ideal place to start.

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Poster: midnightcarousel Date: Aug 25, 2011 6:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Another thought - on the Live Dead dark star, pay close attention to the drums, and Phil's bass. Hearing how those two elements hold the structure together is really fun.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Aug 25, 2011 10:43am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

I agree the 'short & snappy' 1968 Dark Stars would be good starting points - he liked 4/28/71 which is relatively brief & eventful. If an 18-minute Eyes scares him off, I think asking him to try listening to 20-30 minute Dark Stars repeatedly will sound too much like homework!

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Poster: dark.starz Date: Aug 24, 2011 2:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Is it possible to choose one single Dark Star as "the standout?" 2/13/70 may be the most discussed.

Here's a tasty version from 09/19/70.

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1970-09-19.sbd.reynolds.97906.flac16

Remember the Lay's slogan from the 60's? "nobody can eat just one"

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 24, 2011 4:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Ah, if poor recordings are an issue, skip the 6-14 suggestion.

And, as noted by Dark Starz, go DIRECTLY to 9-19-70 for a GREAT DS, with form (skip minutes 8-13) as it has a nicely structured jam, and the post StSt/NFA sequence has a beautiful CCSunflower sequence (more structure) inserted into the jam...

This is ONE fine DS.

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Poster: clementinescaboose Date: Aug 24, 2011 11:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Eyes definitely could be a "jam song" you might be able to wrap your ears around. More melodic, straight forward playing. Those '73-'74 usually have nice soloing during the verses, and jazzy chord progressions in the post song jam. I would check out that 8/6 version for sure - it's long, but stick with it, its considered one of the best Eyes ever and is my personal favorite.

You probably would also enjoy Let It Grow, Here Comes Sunshine, Morning Dew, Dancing In the Streets, (probably the later, more funked-out version of the song) and the China Cat Sunflower>I Know You Rider segues, as well as the other shorter jams others mentioned like Scarlet Begonias>Fire On The Mountain and Bird Song. There are times when I'm just not in the mood for an epic Dark Star or Other One and these kinds of more conventional jams can be easier on the ears.

This band could be considered the ultimate "acquired taste".
Don't give up on the big, long jams - they may seem aimless, you might not like it at first. KEEP listening to them. Listen with headphones, in a quiet space, no distractions. Try to follow one instrument at a time to start out, see if you can keep with it. Patience and repeated listening are the key to this music.

There were jams for me that I just "didn't get" or wasn't really paying attention to for years and when they finally click it's the ultimate "eureka!" moment. Part of makes this band so addicting for deadheads.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Aug 25, 2011 10:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

You know, the guy said he found 8/6/74 "really annoying" and didn't like anything except for Sugaree & Deal...
To me he sounds like a budding 1977 fan (lots of slow-paced songs w/o formless jams), or perhaps a JGB-head...perhaps we're barking up the wrong tree and should be recommending JGB shows to him instead?

It's interesting for me to hear that "patience & repeated listening" are keys to the music. I think most the things I like in the Dead, I liked the first time I heard them (esp. the long jams).....or maybe it's just that I haven't been patient enough yet to warm up to the stuff I don't like!

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Aug 25, 2011 7:37pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

This piece is interesting to me since I'm a huge JGB fan but it's not because I want to avoid jams ... it's more a craving for straight-up Garcia ...

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Poster: clementinescaboose Date: Aug 25, 2011 2:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

True, but i took it as having more to do with the sound maybe? Maybe if he heard a SB copy it would be better. He probably also doesn't appreciate the Playin'>Scarlet>Playin' which goes pretty deep.

It's interesting to me actually that you 'got' the Dead so quickly; so many people I know (including my self) took quite a while to 'warm up' the the band's sound. It's just so dense that I think for a lot of new listeners the sheer scope of sound and band interaction is hard to absorb. For me, almost every time I hear a jam I hear something new in it or hear it in a different way. Props for having an exceptional ear!

This post was modified by clementinescaboose on 2011-08-25 21:08:49

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Poster: clementinescaboose Date: Aug 25, 2011 12:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Some recommended song versions w/ links

Eyes of the World:

5/26/73

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1973-05-26.sbd.miller.patched.83535.flac16

10/29/73

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1973-10-29.sbd.miller.32352.sbeok.flac16

6/20/74 - Slipnot! jam

http://www.archive.org/details/gd74-06-20.sbd.clugston.2179.sbeok.shnf

5/7/77

http://www.archive.org/details/gd77-05-07.sbd.eaton.wizard.26085.sbeok.shnf

8/10/82

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1982-08-10.sbd.miller.102577.flac16

Weather Report Suite/Let It Grow:

9/11/73 - really Jazzy version w/ horns

http://www.archive.org/details/gd73-09-11.sbd.lanum.184.sbeok.shnf

7/31/74

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1974-07-31.sbd.miller.32353.sbeok.flac16

10/29/77

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1977-10-29.sbd.miller.92085.sbeok.flac16

5/1/81

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1981-05-01.sbd.miller.107437.flac16

Here Comes Sunshine:

2/15/73

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1973-02-15.sbd.hall.1580.shnf

11/17/73

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1973-11-17.sbd.ashley.23472.sbefail.shnf

2/23/74

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1974-02-23.sbd.miller.115607.flac16

Dancin' In The Streets:

2/26/77

http://www.archive.org/details/gd77-02-26.sbd.alphadog.9752.sbeok.shnf

5/8/77

http://www.archive.org/details/gd77-05-08.sbd.hicks.4982.sbeok.shnf

10/27/79

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1979-10-27.sbd.miller.98950.sbeok.flac16

China>Rider:

8/27/72

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1972-08-27.sbd.latvala-eaton-lutch-dankseed.4682.shnf


5/26/73

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1973-05-26.sbd.miller.patched.83535.flac16


5/17/74

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1974-05-17.sbd.miller.89972.sbeok.flac16

Morning Dew:

9/11/73

http://www.archive.org/details/gd73-09-11.sbd.lanum.184.sbeok.shnf

2/24/74

http://www.archive.org/details/gd74-02-24.sbd.windsor.199.sbefail.shnf

5/8/77

http://www.archive.org/details/gd77-05-08.sbd.hicks.4982.sbeok.shnf

9/18/87

http://www.archive.org/details/gd87-09-18.sbd.samaritano.20025.sbeok.shnf

















This post was modified by clementinescaboose on 2011-08-25 07:38:40

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Poster: Alfred Creech Date: Aug 25, 2011 9:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

It seems you may be overwhelmed with response to your questions. So I'll throw another anchor to a drowning man.
You say you have a hard time staying with the jams. http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=517043 get a copy of this show and it might just persuade you to like the groovy jam a little bit more.
I know it's not the GD, but it is Jerry and it is phenomenal.

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Poster: Uncle_John Date: Aug 25, 2011 9:10pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

kdern -

The extended jams are certainly an acquired taste for most people. I've been listening to this band for nearly (mumble) 35 years, and I still hit the fast forward button at times.

The thing about the really deep jams for me is that I might listen to a show 3 or 4 times and decide that a jam is pointlessly self-indulgent - then, the 5th time, I'll be in the right space or the stars are all lined up or whatever, and it will click and I'll be reminded once again why they were so a brilliant.

But the reason I keep coming back and looking for shows I haven't heard and listening to the same shows for the umpteenth time is that the music is rewarding on many different levels. Many of their songs are lyrical and musical masterpieces that reward repeated listening. Especially the Garcia/Hunter songs, but Weir and Barlow did nice work as well. The delivery of those songs, the nuances of phrasing and instrumentation, evolved over the years and was often noticeably different even from one show to the next. If all we had available was one good version of each song, I would still probably listen to more Dead than all other bands combined - discovering new interpretations of the lyrics and noticing subtle musical touches. But, of course, those songs were delivered within the context of thousands of shows - each of which has it's own individual character, and it's here where you can hear the often magical transitions from one song to the next and enjoy the subtle and not-so-subtle differences in interpretation and delivery. And then you have the 30 year evolution of the band's sound and repertoire. I'm with you, I spend most of my listening time on the first 2/3 of the '70's, but the wildly exuberant '60's, the polished popish and often painful '80's, and even the '90's can be thoroughly enjoyable and rewarding.

There's a link near the top of the Archive's GD page to the Grateful Dead Listening Guide: http://www.deadlistening.com/ I have found it interesting and sometimes enlightening to listen to some of the shows he links while reading his descriptions. He'll talk you through some of the deeper jams in his own inimitable way. He's also a big fan of audience recordings, and might help you to appreciate their virtues.

As for piano, you're already looking in the right place - late '71 to '77. The quality of Keith's playing dropped off dramatically after '77, but he offered a wonderful contribution during the early '70's. Brent ('80's) was a very talented keyboard player, but not really a pianist. Vince ('90's) was a very talented pianist, but had difficulties integrating into the band. Many of the Hornsby shows ('90-'91) are great but, to my ears, Bruce was used to being the leader and was therefore more of a guest soloist (with his own sound and style) than an integral part of the band.

Finally, Light in Ashes pointed you to the GD Lyric and Song Finder: http://www.whitegum.com/~acsa/intro.htm If you go to the left-hand column of that page you can select "Find GD Originals" or "Find GD Covers" under the "GD Songs heading. If you leave the dialog boxes at "Any, Any, and Any" and click the Find Songs button, it will list all songs in that category. The Originals were sung by the band member involved in writing the song. As for Covers, the site includes a "Sung By" field for each song.

As for recommended shows - you have plenty of great reccs to chew on. Once you've listened to each a few times get back to us and let us know what you think. :-)

- John

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Aug 24, 2011 2:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Kevin- You raise many questions in one post - can't attempt to offer answers to all of 'em, especially for good show recs past 1977. There are many others here more qualified; and a little poking around here will yield several people's Top Ten for every year.

I see WT has given you some significant homework for 68-69. That's part of the fun - we have lots of GD homework. It's difficult for most of us to even consider passing up the long, exquisite jamming - it is the very essence of the GD experience. I can understand passing up Drums-Space, although there are some people here who are aficionados of that totally free-form stuff. But passing up Dark Star? that gives me pause... in many ways, this is the ultimate GD music. Duty calls me to give you a little encouragement.

For me, Dark Star is a winding journey, a story told in sounds, places, emotions, melodies. There's more written material about Dark Star than any other piece. Perhaps you will need to focus mental energy to prepare for the journey - the first time I heard it I was very loose on some wonderful smoke, which may not be your scene, but had the effect of allowing me to "go there." The version on Live/Dead is probably the most widely known outside of our circle of Deadheads, and it's a reasonable starting place since it's short and expressive. For a full description of what's going on musically and structurally, this may be of help, but it requires more than an hour of your time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs_4TQLycQI

Here's a little more reading: http://tinyurl.com/3gv6jj5
and this, just for good measure: http://artsites.ucsc.edu/GDead/agdl/ds.html

So that's your assignment, should you choose to accept it - and if it doesn't turn you on, that's OK too. Listen to the music play....


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Poster: kdern Date: Aug 24, 2011 3:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Wow - that's a lot of pressure! :)

I will stick with Dark Star... listening to 4/28/71 now from a suggestion above.

Perhaps my Dead preferences come from the fact that I arrived at the Dead by way of bluegrass, Beatles, Dylan, Simon & Garfunkel and Led Zeppelin. I don't listen to any other jam bands, and I mostly like Jazz that swings.

I'll keep it up though. The YouTube video looks interesting.

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Poster: kdern Date: Aug 24, 2011 4:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

OK - I just listened to 4/28/71 Dark Star per Cliff's suggestion, and it's pretty great. It didn't wander too much for me, there were vocals at the beginning at the end to help the rest of it make sense. It's definitely the first Dark Star I actually liked!

4/29/71 is the next show I'm planning to listen to, so it'll be interesting to hear a DS from the next night.

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Aug 24, 2011 9:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Didn't mean to pressure you- maybe just guide. We're all on the same journey to greater understanding.

And - you'll find many of us also dig the Beatles, Dylan, Led Zepp, and especially bluegrass. This music shares the same roots.

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Poster: Arbuthnot Date: Aug 24, 2011 3:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

"Dark Star is a winding journey, a story told in sounds, places, emotions, melodies"

nice, and succinctly put; perfect

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Poster: Memphis Blues Date: Aug 24, 2011 2:34pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

I can understand where you are in listening to the Dead. I'm a younger soul that never saw them live so my experience is totally on tape and it took me a while to have the patience to sit and listen to the longer unstructured stuff. Drums->Space I will still often skip but if I'm working and not paying attention those fit with the rest of a set. But, I'm only now hearing and really enjoying the long PiTBs from the 70s.

However, I wouldn't skip those 74 Eyes. They are longer than other eras in general, but part of that is the Slipknot!-ish jam that gets taken away in later eras.

I won't offer specific shows because others are more well-versed at that. For me, enjoying the whole range of the Dead's repertoire is a challenge because the longer "jams" are often much more complicated musical ideas that take more patience to 'get' than a great version of Mama Tried. At the risk of sounding cheesy, the brilliance of the Dead is when they would take songs, lose the focus or devolve into space and chaos and somehow collectively draw out of that chaos another theme and then finally they all get in a groove together and they were off into another discrete song. I'm not sure whether it takes concentration or a willingness to get lost in the sound, but when it happens, all I can say is "gosh darn." Or something along those lines.

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Poster: lobster12 Date: Aug 25, 2011 7:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

I know your wheelhouse is 1970-77 but if piano is what you are looking for....then dabble a tad from fall 1990-fall 1991 when Hornsby is a member of the band.

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Poster: clementinescaboose Date: Aug 25, 2011 7:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

If you liked the 4/28/71 version, I definitely agree that the 1968 Dark Stars are a great place to begin with this song. A few of them are actually among my favorites - I can't recommend 10/20/68 enough. Pretty short at under 11 minutes, but they pack a ton into it. Don't be intimidated though, it stays very melodic, fluid and generally pretty grounded:

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1968-10-20.sbd.miller.9071.shnf


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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Aug 24, 2011 6:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Essential. Like breathing.


http://www.archive.org/details/gd_nrps70-06-24.aud.pcrp5.23062.sbeok.flacf

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Poster: midnightcarousel Date: Aug 25, 2011 6:42am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

ditto x 4, although maybe not for a GD noob. try this one when you've got more of an appreciation for the twists and turns of an extended jam. But for me, this is the peak of all peaks; probably my favorite recorded music, ever.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Aug 26, 2011 6:36am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

You guys are sweet. Thanks.


E- MC, it's good to see you back. I was going to reach out, then I got sidetracked. I hope your vision has been O.K. Good luck w/ the semester.
And yes, what can you say about The Jam. It's the one I'll marry. That GD were able to find the magic for so long (even just the first half)(or quarter) is..is.. a word a I just can't find.

This post was modified by micah6vs8 on 2011-08-26 13:36:03

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Aug 25, 2011 5:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Ditto ditto ditto

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Aug 25, 2011 1:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

ditto ditto :-)

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Aug 24, 2011 9:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Good to see you S, hope all is well. The winds have calmed for a while.

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Poster: clementinescaboose Date: Aug 25, 2011 1:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

ditto

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Poster: rastamon Date: Aug 24, 2011 1:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

you just haven't listened to the right Darkstar! I defer back to Mr Tell, if you want my recommend I'll get back to you. (Mr Tell & Mr Cliff help!) A sweet, melodic, structured Star hmmmmmm...

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Aug 24, 2011 3:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

The 4/28/71 Dark Star is the first one that comes to mind. It's a dynamite Star that pretty much stays true to the theme, with a little bit of feedback mixed in...

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1971-04-28.sbd.miller.106099.flac16

Personally I think it's hopeless for this guy, Earl...

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Poster: midnightcarousel Date: Aug 25, 2011 6:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Oh I forgot about that one - that was key to my discovery of the magic of this song. Definitely a good starter DS.

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Poster: kdern Date: Aug 24, 2011 3:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Listening to this one now - thanks.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Aug 25, 2011 2:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Don't worry about not thinking that Dark Star is "all that" right away. When I was getting into the Dead back in prehistoric times -- you know, albums and all, Jerry was alive and not even fat -- I have to say I didn't initially do a whole lot of listening to the Dark Star on my Live/Dead album. (It takes up a whole side.) And I'd been to shows. And I definitely did get into their other “psychedelic stuff.” So there ya go.

I’m pretty sure other folks here have ‘fessed up to songs being the initial draw for them. The band’s brilliance in the song department is definitely one huge thing that sets them apart from jam bands (the ones that you’re not into), as we’ve often discussed here. I expect that if you’re into the straight-ahead songs from the classic '70s era, a lot of what’s grabbing you, if you think about it, is the way they jam out within and around the song structure. (You mentioned Keith’s piano.) Dark Star and the other songs with long jams (like Eyes) are, in a lot of ways, just that to the Nth degree.

But in terms of Dark Star, it can take a while to move from “yeah that was pretty cool” to “holy heck!!!” Basically it’s about getting drawn into that psychedelic space and the band's spur-of-the-moment, stream-of-consciousness scene setting … it can go into very emotional places with a lot of highs and lows, from dark to cosmic to ecstatically sweet … but what it doesn’t tend to do so much is rock, or go into country places, though it can have a swinging jazz vibe. Anyway, you can find the elements of Dark Star in ways that are more structured and may be initially easier to “get” within a whole ton of other places. Jerry once said there's a little of Dark Star in everything they do.

I guess what you mainly know, and are drawn to so far, is classic '70s Keith era. Wonderful, of course! But to get more familiar with the “best of the Brent era” (1979-1990), just sample a bunch on the Archives … it’s such an amazing resource!

I can't possibly name just ONE SHOW. I mean, you're asking folks who think that having 200 shows is too few. So ... one show? Oh, right :-)

But a few to get on your list to see if the era grabs you:

- Fall ’79 (a few of my favorites are 10/27/79, 10/31, 11/24, 11/25, 12/1);

- 5/16/81 is a Don’t Miss! '80 and '81 have a lot of good shows, so search around for recs. If you like the folk/bluegrass sound and Jerry tunes, DO check out the acoustic runs in '80!!!

- check out the Summer ’82 tour (try 7/31, 8/3, 8/7, 8/10); 9/17/82 is a barn burner; 10/10/82 is a favorite of many folks;

- For '83, some to consider are 9/2/83 and 10/17/83 (one of a group of fine October show);

- 10/12/84 is a Don’t Miss!

Jerry’s voice is shot in ’85, so while there’s some wonderful stuff from the year, it wouldn’t be my rec for First Experiences of the 80s on Tape. Particularly if you're keen on Jerry, as you said.

Others have already posted on later years. Most folks on this forum tend not to be big on the '90s, but others have different opinions. It's all about your own ears, after all!

You may find you like SBDs more than AUDs. Easy way to tell on the archives: SBD says “keywords: soundboard" and "source: SBD." AUD says “source: audience recording” or "keywords: live concert." Matrix is a mix of both.

If you’re staring at a bunch of recordings and going, “Oh, geez, which do I listen to, so that I'm really getting the best there is?” look for the magic name Charlie Miller. (On the show page, it'll say, keywords: Soundboard, Charlie Miller. And transferred by: Charlie Miller.) He’s the maestro of wonderful sound.



This post was modified by AltheaRose on 2011-08-25 09:09:54

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Aug 25, 2011 5:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

>albums and all, Jerry was alive and not even fat --

LOL

Great thread (bookmarking - more homework ...)

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Aug 25, 2011 5:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions


Ah yes. And here's Jerry on the very day of my 2nd show. Look at that NOT GRAY HAIR!

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj266/icepetal/Dead/Dead%201978-11-17/GD_Rambler_Room_111778_rr6.jpg?t=1288972049

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Aug 25, 2011 5:29am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Here's the link. For ever more bookmarks! Just someone's Photobucket page, I guess ... hope he doesn't mind it being bookmarked. Unfortunately I didn't see this show (Rambler Room), which I guess was spur-of-the-moment (wouldn't THAT have been great!), but in a few hours, they'd be playing for me. As you can see, that very thought put them in a good mood :-)

Geez they look young. And relaxed. And so very very '70s.

http://s274.photobucket.com/albums/jj266/icepetal/Dead/Dead%201978-11-17/?start=all

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Poster: wisconsindead Date: Aug 25, 2011 7:34pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

cool pictures and I knew nothing of this acoustic show. I cant imagine seeing the dead in a venue like that. Really cool

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Aug 25, 2011 7:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

I know. And those college Hunger Week signs? Oh geez. My thoughts, of course, go along the lines of ... Blast them! They picked the wrong college! I did Hunger Week type stuff too! I'd have made really good signs! And met the Dead! And gotten them to sign my really good Hunger Week signs, which I would now have hung up at my house! Sheesh.

But really, even the venue that night (and the night before) was just wonderful. And not at all huge feeling. So, hey, can't complain. (Yes I can. Hey, what was wrong with MY magic markers?)

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Aug 25, 2011 6:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Oh, those are so cool! thanks! I guess it just shows I am getting old (getting??!! been there awhile, actually), but I think those are groovy.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Aug 25, 2011 6:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Excellent! You just proved my son wrong! I am NOT the only person who still says "groovy." (After all, part of my job description is "give teenager ample reasons to roll eyes," and I do my best to provide. "Groovy" will always do it.)

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 25, 2011 7:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

I have to admit, I can't say it without worrying about it. IE, I'd only say it for "effect", and I don't need any more assistance with elevation of "geek factor" with my kids (all 20 +, so really, they are past it all...thinking there's any hope). "Far out", "Outta sight", and "Groovy" never felt absolutely genuine, or it was my OCD, but "cool" was/is a word that drew no unwanted looks/eye movements.

However, of my two older brothers, one that passed, one that hasn't, the one that passed always used those words, and it seemed right, while the other NEVER would; I was always puzzled by how "context" dependent--the person--it all was.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Aug 25, 2011 7:58am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

"Groovy" has come full circle. Originally, we really meant it, we used it un-self-consciously. Decades later we used it ironically, or for effect. Now I think I actually use it literally again.

Althea, your teen is younger than mine I think. My son's friends say "groovy" without irony. They are only vaguely aware the usage refers to an earlier era.

"Cool," I agree, somehow remains neutral, and doesn't raise eyebrows with the young people, as long as one says it sort of casually, without huge enthusiasm. It is a sort of all-purpose, neutral stamp of approval. If for instance my son says he will be home by 2 a.m., I say "Cool" as calmly as I can and try not to make eye contact ... if anyone knows where my son has been all summer, let me know ...

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 25, 2011 8:07am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

The single most troubling issue about raising kids for "us" (vs "our" parents) is that we are so much more involved, aware, etc. Truly, my folks NEVER had any idea, and of course, it worked quite well (no one poked an eye with that "thing", nor this nor that, etc., etc.). But, I (we) seemed much better at negotiating through it all, independently solving any crisis that erupted, with the guiding principle being "don't let them find out" (anyone's parents).

I don't (didn't) see that so much with my kids...they weren't as self sufficient, and though that sounds like a "knock", it was entirely derived by us being "a part of their lives" if that makes sense...By "being there" so much, I realized they were exposed to it all, but not alone, and of course, you learn faster when you do it all (anything from changing a tire, to building a bike, to helping a friend through a drug crisis...I can recall one of my kids calling me to walk through the vital signs to decide whether to take a friend to the hospital).

Imagine going to a concert with your parents; and yet for my kids, that was exactly how they were introduced to it (as teenagers; babies don't count, nor should they be there).

Don't get me wrong, I view the detachment/disengagement of my parent's generation as bordering on criminal, but of course, we survived, and certainly matured at a younger age. I largely think that's the difference--maturity came faster in the 60s and early 70s, with parents that largely were unaware of/uninterested in all the New Age aspects of family that we all so appreciate...other than the whacko parents of that time that attempted to isolate/inculcate "family values" in the worst possible way.

Dr. Spock II stepping down now...

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Poster: high flow Date: Aug 25, 2011 8:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

I agree Mr. Tell. In our neighborhood the motto was "have bike will travel". And so we did.....all over the East Bay. Entire days would pass and nobody sent out a search party or released the hounds....as long as we were home(or called home) at dinner.

"Hey Andy, what did you do today?"
"Not much, just hung around."
Translation: We rode bikes in the aqua-ducts under Castro Valley and hopped a BART train to Bayfair Mall and then hitch-hiked up to Cal-State Hayward where we rode bikes through the various halls of education before we jumped the fence and swam in their pool.

Nothing to see here grown-ups.....move along.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 25, 2011 10:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Ha--we really did share a lot in common, Flow...we too rode bikes all over, from WC to Livermore to Martinez to Briones; a number of 50 mi rides in half days. And, sneaking into to HS swimming pools was a great "initiation", though I recall shivering my you know whats off while thinking "WTF? is this really 'fun'?" (it seemed so when it was hot, but you know how it cooled off at night, and...well, that's the Bay Area for ya...the pool at 2 am was far less inviting, esp sans any girls in the bike riding clan).

Speaking of bikes, did you ever play "bike football"? We always thought we "invented it" in 72; 2 on 2, lg, unused parking lot, late afternoon in summer, bike had to be moving at all times after snap, and football could be gripped in mouth if necessary...one hand tag...how did we NOT kill ourselves I sometimes wonder?

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Aug 25, 2011 10:36am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Right ... or I say, "Where are you going" and I get "I'll be at Joe's" .... which I realize translates, "We are starting our evening at Joe's house, and later we will be pretty much anywhere we please in the city of Philadelphia and neihboring counties; I will let you know if I get arrested somewhere west of the Mississippi, otherwise don't wait up."

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Aug 25, 2011 8:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

It certainly is interesting ... I have to work but I'll be back later. I am in a crisis at the present of finding it very difficult and exhausting having a pretty damn good idea just what he is up to and trying to stay "cool" about it all. There's a lot of lying awake listening for the car in the driveway. yeah, I agree our parents had it easier, never having the faintest clue about much of anything.

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Poster: jgIynn1.2 Date: Aug 25, 2011 10:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

The one of Phil is hysterical

Thanks

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Aug 25, 2011 7:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: A few more newbie questions

Yeah, isn't that great?

And there's also ... this one! Phil Fashion Sense at its most unique! I'd post the pic but it ends up so so huge that Phil's hat eats the page.

[IMG]http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj266/icepetal/Dead/Dead%201972-10-21/1972-10-21Phil1a.jpg[/IMG]

Here's more from that show, 10/21/72, on the same site. He makes the show photos available for email links and downloads, I guess:
http://s274.photobucket.com/albums/jj266/icepetal/Dead/Dead%201972-10-21/



This post was modified by AltheaRose on 2011-08-26 02:13:20